The Power of Connection with Jon M. Chu, presented by AbbVie

Ellen McGirt (00:00):

Oh my God, don’t you just want to break into song and dance right now? If I were any kind of thank you, oh yes. If I were any kind of moderator at all, I would've organized you all after the Carrie concert. We would've had a dance number ready right now. I feel like this actually happens to you all the time. People just would break out into song and dance.

Jon M. Chu (00:24):

These days. A lot of people, they do the war cry, they do the Cynthia.

Ellen McGirt (00:29):

Like get the Piggly Wiggly, like just walking down the street. They do a war cry when business journalists show up, but it doesn't feel the same. Oh, thank you so much for being here.

Jon M. Chu (00:37):

Thanks for having me.

Ellen McGirt (00:40):

We're going to talk about a lot of things today as you heard in the introduction. I also am going to be referring to this amazing book. I love authors, I love books. I have the same advice every time you're going to want to read this, give this to lots of people. It's a leadership book in disguise. So what can you do? You can expense it.

Jon M. Chu (00:57):

I like it.

Ellen McGirt (00:59):

Oh, you have brought so much joy to the world with your work and I do want to ask you about dance and what particularly moves you about dance later on. Joy has been a theme this week today. If I want to take a quick moment to acknowledge just how extraordinary your personal story is, which we're going to talk about today, and how fortunate we are to have you succeeding in one of the most competitive industries on the planet, particularly at this time. Of course, I'm making just sort of an oblique reference to Wicked, a gloriously lushly imagined and produced courageous singing and dancing and caring about talking animals like courage when we need it. Just at this moment when all of the things that we're thinking about and creating that make the world better for all are under attack in kind of a dangerous and scary way. Your personal story is also equally compelling. So we're going to talk about that today as well too. An affirmation of an immigrant American dream, which is also under attack in kind of a dangerous and scary way today. That story is so compelling and interesting and beautiful that even if you had turned out just to be a regular old brain surgeon, your parents originally wanted for you.

Jon M. Chu (02:19):

They still want that for me, by the way.

Ellen McGirt (02:20):

It's not too late. It's not too late. Give 'em a manual and a volunteer and I think you can get it done.

Jon M. Chu (02:26):

A little AI. I can do anything,

Ellen McGirt (02:28):

Anything, anything. If we only had a brain, I'm going to make all the jokes today. Make all the jokes today. But your story is their story too. I'm going to say Half Moon Bay, 1969. That's a reference you'll get when you read the book. The values, the values that they embraced and the community they created in the family that they love and cherished are a big part of the reason why we all want to dance with joy just because you're here and what a lovely thing that is. Before we jump into your career and thoughts on leadership, a changing industry and technology and all the things that you're so good at and just the joyful act of making something out of nothing. I want to just go back to Wicked for a second. You all know the story, the untold story of the Wicked Witch of the West, an extraordinary play and an extraordinary book. You actually saw the play when it was workshopped before it was on Broadway when you were a film student.

Jon M. Chu (03:26):

Yeah, so I grew up in the Bay Area in, yeah, Bay Area in Los Altos, California and yes, Los Altos.

Ellen McGirt (03:36):

Jon, what'd you have for lunch? Just to check. Tuna sandwich. Anybody?

Jon M. Chu (03:42):

My family has a Chinese restaurant there. It's been there for now 56 years. Crazy. Chef Chu’s. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. He likes it, right? Yeah it's legendary there and it's good prices and healthy food. It's great. You got to go there. You got to go there. It's true. I have more connection. I will always be my father's son because that's how more people talk to me, even to this than anything else. But I grew up there and my parents, they came over from China and Taiwan and they wanted us to always, because they didn't speak the language when they first came. They wanted us to be engulfed in American culture. They always told us America is the greatest place in the world. If you love what you do and you work hard, you can literally do anything. And they were proving it and I watched them do it every day, working every day of their lives, even to this day. And yes, and so they would take us to shows also. My dad would be like, why are you taking, they're so young. I was the youngest of five kids, but they take us to, it was either musical season, opera season or ballet season in the city. And so we would always go. So that was a tradition. And when I was in college sort of those days, I sort of passed. I was at USC my freshman year and my mom called Yes, Trojans. We got a lot. We connect in a lot of ways. Everything is here.

Ellen McGirt (05:05):

Everything you say is popular.

Jon M. Chu (05:08):

Yes. These are the people. I heard a boo. I heard one boo.

Ellen McGirt (05:14):

I won't do it anymore.

Jon M. Chu (05:15):

This is the end of the week. You can tell it’s the end of the week.

Ellen McGirt (05:16):

I won't do it anymore. I know.

Jon M. Chu (05:19):

So we went to, my mom called me and she's like, Hey. And she'd just been going through chemo and she had breast cancer, but she was just not able to go out, but this is the time she could actually go out again. And so she's like, come back for another show. Steven Schwartz has a new show and they're workshopping it in San Francisco before it ever went on Broadway. And so I was like, of course. And so I got this really special night with my mom to watch Steven Schwartz's new musical. And I remember just being blown away, not just because this is a time for me and my mom, but it was also the Wizard of Oz, this story that was so near and dear to our upbringing of this America being this yellow brick road and this man behind the curtain that was going to give you your heart's desire if you did the right things. And so that was always, but to watch this show and to watch them unpack the stories that we were told that my parents were told, and to see the Wicked Witch in a new way, in a new perspective just was so cinematic to me. It blew me away. Thought someone's going to make an amazing movie of this one day. I just never thought it would be me. So it was kind of crazy to me.

Ellen McGirt (06:25):

And then you got the call out during the pandemic at the height of your power.

Jon M. Chu (06:28):

20 something years later. Yes.

Ellen McGirt (06:30):

Oh my Lord. I want to go back to your upbringing just briefly before we move on because Ruth and Lawrence, the stories are just amazing. Years of tap dancing lessons, they dressed you like your mother referred to you as the Asian Kennedys.

Jon M. Chu (06:44):

Yes. She would call me Jon Jon.

Ellen McGirt (06:48):

You in fact, and your sister were named after an iconic American TV character.

Jon M. Chu (06:53):

Yes, Jennifer and Jonathan Hart from a show called Hart to Hart. So it was very important to them, the media apparently.

Ellen McGirt (07:04):

And yet it took for of all that pressure to be excellent and to be immersed in the culture and also be successful. It was a Sharper Image catalog that turned your head.

Jon M. Chu (07:16):

Yes. So I was looking through a Sharper Image catalog as a young person would do those days, the amazing stuff in it. And I feel like they have hover crafts and things. Anyway, I know this day I was looking through it and I saw this little mixer that you could connect your VCRs to and your stereo to. And I had been shooting stuff. My parents made me carry the camera, the youngest, to whenever we were around. So I would shoot my brother and sisters and we'd have this pile of tapes. We still have these pile of tapes around. But this mixer, I convinced my dad for, I think it was $199.

Ellen McGirt (07:57):

Real money back then.

Jon M. Chu (07:59):

That was real money for, I think I was 11 or 12 years old, to get me this mixer. And I remember calling him at work at 10 o'clock at night. He's like, aren't you supposed to be asleep? I was like, I know, but I can't sleep. This is a cool mixer. Can you get it for me? I'll make all these videos for you, the restaurant. I promise I'll make cooking videos for you. I never made one of them, but I did make Crazy Rich Asians, which I didn't think for them. But

Ellen McGirt (08:23):

Yes, a love letter to your family.

Jon M. Chu (08:24):

Yes. But getting that in the mail changed everything. Nobody knew how to do it. I couldn't ask my parents. It was confusing to me what wires go and where. But I got the VCRs from all my brothers and sisters rooms and we connected it and I added song to it and made something all night long. And I got my parents to sit down on the couch and watch it the next day.

Ellen McGirt (08:46):

And they

Jon M. Chu (08:47):

When they watched it, I remember exactly the moment they were watching and I put it to oldies music. And they're watching this, our family, like a regular American family with oldies music to it. And they just started to cry. And I remember never having that effect on anybody and not even really felt like I was heard in any other way. And it just hit me like this. There was something about this medium that I felt very connected to and I could express myself in this. And I never stopped. I fell in love at that moment.

Ellen McGirt (09:24):

And the intermediate step before you got to film school was turning yourself into a little filmmaking entrepreneur, which included covering things like bar mitzvahs. And

Jon M. Chu (09:35):

Yes, I did. I did weddings, I did bar mitzvahs, I did whatever you needed me to do. And in fact, I dunno why I'm going to tell this story, but it's funny, it just came to my mind. There's this guy who lived in our house who was playing tennis at, I think he was our age, and I was really in love with this girl that was a year younger than me. And then he started to date her and I was so mad. I was like, how can you do that? You live at my house, whatever. And then for years later when he was graduating, they were all graduating. He came to me, I didn't talk to them for so long, they came to me. He's like, Hey, we're graduating and we've been dating for a couple years now, and can you make a memory video of our relationship and the things? And I was like, I'm going to make the best damn relationship video you have ever seen. And it was beautiful and it was lovely. And it was one of those things that when you're that young and you feel like you have the power to paint portraits for people, it was both healing for me. But also you have an understanding of maybe what your role is. You get to set horizon line for people and they want to live up to those standards.

Ellen McGirt (10:53):

Yeah, yeah. So after some,

Jon M. Chu (10:56):

I dunno why I told that story

Ellen McGirt (10:58):

I love we're breaking new ground today.

Jon M. Chu (11:01):

It's not in the book.

Ellen McGirt (11:04):

So after some normal back and forth with your parents about what you want to be in your life, they endorse your idea to go full bore into the film business and you end up going to USC and having an amazing time. And there are a couple of important things happen to you in there. One is your student film, When the Kids Are Away, was spectacular enough to get the attention of an agent, William Morris and a very prominent film director.

Jon M. Chu (11:31):

Yes. So it was a musical, which all my teachers told me at that time, don't make a musical if you want a job. This is 2001. We want to prepare you to get a job and musicals are dead. This is before Chicago came out at that moment. Well, I made it anyway. And then, yes. And that project got a lot of attention and Steven Spielberg got it on his desk and called me and had me go meet with him, which was a dream. And when Steven does that, the whole industry sort of listens and says, who's this kid? And so that's where it started. He bought a project from me. We never actually made it, but that was sort of my entry into USC. But it was interesting, before that movie I had done, I had gotten the senior thesis project and they only chose four directors to do your senior project called four eighty. And I was like, I'm making one about my Asian American identity. And it was called Gwai Lo and also a mini musical.

Jon M. Chu (12:40):

And I was so self-conscious of making it because I'd never actually talked about being Asian before. And I didn't know how my class would react. And when I started shooting dailies, the students would be like, what did they really call you that? Did they really do that? And it made me question, maybe I'm being too sensitive. And maybe that didn't exactly happen, but that felt like that. So when we made the movie, it got a huge response, but I didn't send it to film festivals, which you're supposed to do. I didn't get it out to go get attention from it because I felt so ashamed by my, because I didn't know if it was the right message that I was trying to say. And so I sort of buried it and went right into this musical new musical idea. It was about the secret life of mothers and that musical is the one that got the attention from Steven Spielberg and all these things. So I sort of left this sort of void, this blind spot in my life, was able to sort of let it go and move on. And I was rewarded for doing that in a weird way. And that would stay with me for many, many years of not visiting that thing ever again.

Ellen McGirt (13:52):

The Asian part, you called it your Asian cultural identity, which so many people experience people of Asian heritage. Where do you fit into cultures? You fit into no cultures. Do you become the Asian person in everything that you do? Do you become the Asian Director?

Ellen McGirt (14:07):

And in fact, the project that you had commissioned with Steven Spielberg commissioned with you was a hip hop version of Bye Bye Birdie, which I would still love to see one day. It did not get made and there was a period of darkness as all Hollywood heroes must experience. And out of the darkness comes Step Up 2.

Jon M. Chu (14:28):

Yes.

Ellen McGirt (14:30):

Right.

Jon M. Chu (14:33):

So the business is a little bit nutty and you are only as good as your last thing. But when you get discovered, usually people have done music videos, commercials, other independent films or something. But I won the lottery, I got discovered by Steven Spielberg. And when you're actually getting the movie together, and I don't know what I'm doing. I'm 22 years old. After a few years, the development, as they call development hell, sort of takes hold and you don't actually make the movie. And that is very hard. And I was attached to a bunch of different movies to a point where I got new managers at the time who are here tonight. Alan and Brian somewhere in the audience had been with them ever since. But they were helping me find sort of what my first thing would be. And Steven Spielberg was like, be very careful with that first choice. That first choice is everything. It defines you. And so it was very scary. And at the same time I'm like, but I need to eat. And telling me these new managers, I was like, I need something to prove myself. And so they sent me a couple things, but one of them was a sequel to a dance movie called Step Up, and it was supposed to be direct to DVD. And I told them, yeah, I don't do direct to DVD because I got discovered by Spielberg.

Jon M. Chu (15:57):

And I told my mom this. The managers were like, of course, of course you don't do DVD, of course. And I told my mom this and she said, when did you become a snob? I said, what do you mean? She's like, if you are a storyteller, you can tell a story anywhere. You should be able to tell it on stage in a commercial, on DVD or by a campfire. And that really drilled into my head and I was like, you're right. I am in the NBA, but I'm on the bench. I need two minutes. And if I want to play in the NBA, I got to play in the NBA.

Jon M. Chu (16:37):

And so I was like, I'm going to make the best damn direct directed DVD dance movie sequel of all time. And I redid the script and pitched it to this company. Disney had distributed the first movie, but because it was direct to DVD, they weren't distributing this one. But when they heard that I was attached to this, two weeks later they asked for a meeting I pitched to Oren Aviv, who was the head of the studio there. And within 20 minutes he said, we have a slot for this movie next year to go in theaters and can you get it done in nine months?

Ellen McGirt (17:06):

Isn't that great?

Jon M. Chu (17:08):

We did, yeah. It's crazy.

Ellen McGirt (17:09):

Yeah. It's my favorite of the franchise. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And then a slew of very interesting things happen. We're going to fast forward a little bit, including the Justin Bieber documentary, which was incredible. And you were part of a dance crew for a while.

Jon M. Chu (17:23):

Yes. I wasn't dancing in the dance crew. I was making the videos for that, but yes.

Ellen McGirt (17:26):

Well, in my mind you were sort of dancing behind the scenes, but just to know that you do have moves, you actually were a mascot in high school.

Jon M. Chu (17:36):

Yes, yes. I was a mascot. I was a panther. We were the Pinewood Panthers. And I do have to say there is something about putting on the mask. There's something about putting on the hands and the feet which are padded and when I am in high school and the reason why is because I was in charge of the halftime shows and we had redone our cheerleading squad. I had gotten DJs to do the halftime show, but nobody wanted to be the mascot. I'm like, if we got to close the deal here, we got to have a mascot. I was like, I'm going to be the mascot. So I went to spirit camp, I got the school to buy a cool outfit, and I got in the thing. And there's something magical because the way everybody looks at you is the way you wish you were always looked at. Everyone invites you towards them. Kids come and hug you. Parents love you. Everyone wants to, I mean, you're a celebrity and you can do anything. You can dance terribly. But people laugh and people love it. And I will say that there was a parallel between that and a camera lens. No doubt. When I had a camera around, when I have a camera around, people open up and they let you in. It was my VIP pass to any place. And so there was something, there's a similar parallel line in those two worlds. Thank you for bringing up being a mascot.

Ellen McGirt (19:10):

I want to jump to Crazy Rich Asians when things really get real on so many levels for you and for us. You call it the film that really outed you as a director. And it was enormously successful, highest grossing film over the August weekend debut over the US box over those first five days, a million just sort of benchmarked a beloved book with a name that not everybody loved or understood. And also was launched into a world where Asian American actors and talent were becoming more public on social media and other places about bigotry and stereotyping and lack of representation. And later on violent against the AAPI community as we got into the covid years. But this amazing, gorgeous, lush film just was born into an environment where we were starting to have a conversation between AAPI members and allies about identity. Tell us about how all of that came together and how it worked to support the film.

Jon M. Chu (20:11):

So right before I was doing a movie called, Now You See Me 2, which was my third sequel of a movie. And I was working with some of the best actors from Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman, Jesse Eisenberg, Woody Harrelson. It was an amazing group of people. And I remember for all the movies before, I always felt like I was playing catch up, trying to figure out how to work it and get what I needed. I always had a studio sort of there. But I remember shooting with these actors, these amazing actors, and one day feeling like I could feel my 10,000 hours hit. I was like, oh, I deserve to be here and I can hang. And that switch made me look at everything differently and suddenly I'm like, I love this movie. I'm having a lot of fun, but anyone could make this movie and why am I spending my time here again?

Jon M. Chu (21:09):

I love that movie. We had a great experience, but it was really important for me during that experience to realize who are you now? If you know how to do this, then what do you want to say? And at the same time, there was the Oscar so white stuff happening, there was #starringjohncho tag on Twitter, which was they put John Cho on movie posters as if he was the lead of Mission Impossible or all these movies. And you're like, oh yeah, that could actually happen, but that has never happened. And it sort of made you question why. And I remember being like, yeah, what's wrong with Hollywood? And then I realized, oh, I am Hollywood. I've been in those conversations where they're like, oh, you can't cast that because that doesn't sell internationally. Hey, you can't do this because the audience wants this or that.

Jon M. Chu (21:59):

And I was young. You sort of fall into the trappings of what they tell you is the business. And I realized I may be the only one at this moment because I've proven myself in the commercial world, in the commercial movie world that I could take a story, be very commercial with it, but at the same time cast it in a way and have talent in a way that has never been done before. I knew I could walk that line. And so I was looking for what that could be. My mom, my sister, my cousin sent me this book, cCrazy Rich Asians. And in reading that book, it was the story of Rachel Chu, an Asian American going to Asia for the first time. And I understood what that was. I understood what it felt like to go to Taiwan and feel like, whoa, everyone looks like me so I don't get strange looks or I feel like they're all my cousins, so they're treating me differently. And then they also call you a foreigner.

Jon M. Chu (23:05):

Foreign devil. And then you're like, oh, I'm not a part of this either. And I love that this was going to be this delicious travel log movie and we could make fun of ourselves and our own culture, but that anybody could watch it. It was going to be food porn plus romantic comedy, but at the center of it that it was going to be how, not how much you're worth but your self-worth. And I knew that this was the thing that scared me the most, going back to that student short that I never wanted to touch again, to declare myself as an Asian American filmmaker and not be scared anymore that people could box me in and just send me Asian films or anything like that, which still sort of happens. But at the same time, I was confident enough and ready in my life to do that.

Jon M. Chu (23:58):

Also, I was about to have my first child. And so everything about story switched for me about the story of the world that was taught to me by my parents about America being the greatest place in this yellow brick road and this person that was going to give you your heart's desire if you followed all the rules. And I had gone through so much that some of the story I didn't believe anymore and that I thought for my children, I want to set a new story for them, something as optimistic and as beautiful, but prepare them for the disappointments and the obstacles that maybe that yellow brick road was never meant for you. But there is another road that is a little rougher, but you get to do what you want to do in that and to help build that for them. And Crazy Rich Asians absolutely had the things that I, we could really do. And also when you have Asian American or Asian from all around the world, comedians, brilliant actors, all that are not being tapped, you have a deep well of talent that's being ignored. So I could cherry pick with the Avengers of Asian talent.

Ellen McGirt (25:14):

Oh my gosh, wasn't that, oh my God. And the thing that really continues to impress me to this day, all of it is just beautiful to hear from your lips, Jon. Thank you. You're giving us such a gift today, but that you had the foresight and the courage when Netflix was the thing. Netflix was the thing. Everybody was chasing it, by the way. Yes, I did not declare time of death on Netflix, I apologize. But at the time it was the new thing and it was the new powerful thing. And everybody wanted to be on the platform. You decided to make, and you advocated for a different choice. Tell us why.

Jon M. Chu (25:50):

Yeah, so we thought we were going to make Crazy Rich Asians independently. We didn't think any studio would be really into it, but as we're developing it, you could feel the studios sort of curious and sniffing around. So we were like, okay, let's go around town, let's pitch it. So we pitched them what it was, and I had this whole deck laid out what it was, and the two people who were chasing us were Warner Brothers and Netflix. And it came down to sort of a bidding war between the two. And Netflix was like, Jon, if your intention is for more people to experience this amazing talented cast and to see the Asian diaspora in this way, Netflix is the place .We go all around the world. Millions and millions of people, tens of millions of people day in date for that subscription price. So they're going to have access.

Jon M. Chu (26:50):

Warner's is like, we have theaters, but I guess that was it. Apparently when we were making them bid against each other, we waited a little long for Warner Brothers. So they're basically fed up, they're like, on this date, we're going to make our final offer and you have 20 minutes to reply, otherwise we pull the offer. So on that time, at that date, Netflix knew we're coming. So Netflix made their final offer. Warner Brothers made their final offer. I'm on the phone with 20 lawyers plus our producers because really producers have the say of where we're going. And the author Kevin Kwan. And we get on this call and we're debating the two things. And Warner Brothers, because we had waited that week, decided to offer us less money upfront. So now it went from a movie, a studio that offered less than they did last week, no guarantees of a sequel or anything.

Jon M. Chu (27:48):

Netflix sort of guaranteeing the of course marketing push that they can do and development of future sequels and obviously all the eyeballs. And when we sat down and talked about it, the producers said, you and Kevin get to choose. Your story is so important to you guys. You tell us what to do, we take the money, but you tell us what to do. And it was really hard. I'm looking at my backyard, which was not a very nice backyard, and all I wanted was to take that really nice upfront Netflix money and redo my yard.

Jon M. Chu (28:23):

And I'm talking and we started talking about value and we're talking about why don't we take a piece of the percentage we make from Netflix and donate that to Asian American media companies. And we're like, but the whole reason you do that is so they can get to this moment right now to decide who gets to play on the big screen. And we also realize we're all in good spaces financially and professionally. If anyone, we could take the bet. And so we made the decision to forego the Netflix and say, the thing that we've always been missing is the value of you pay upfront and you get the privilege to sit in the dark and we get time to tell you a story. It's like we get to be in the museum for the first time with the fancy label and the $20 million, 50 million marketing push that a studio would give to this cast. And so that was really important for us, whether people showed up or not, we knew the opportunity to bet on the world and bet on our movie that we can make it entertaining enough that they would show up. And if that worked, then it would break the dam. That was the bet that we took on each other. And when the movie did come out, oh, thank you.

Ellen McGirt (29:55):

Right. Did you see it in the theater?

Jon M. Chu (29:57):

It worked. Thank you. Thank you.

Ellen McGirt (29:58):

I did too.

Jon M. Chu (29:59):

The best part is at that opening weekend, going into the lobby to see if people showed up. By the way, we couldn't give away free tickets for the test screenings because Asian people were offended by the title and other people didn't think it was for them. So we were very scared when it was coming out. But that opening weekend, it came out and people came out the second weekend, they came out even more. And the best part was going into the lobby and all the Asian people who dressed up and it was there bringing their grandparents and they all would congregate in the lobby. They didn't want to leave and they would just talk about it. And their friends who knew nothing about Asian culture were talking about, oh, what did that mean? What's mahjong? And then of course every weekend it just kept staying around. And then I got my backyard. So everybody wins. It's not about that, but it's a really nice pool.

Ellen McGirt (30:52):

It's a nice pool. Yeah. You got all those kids. I want to read something that you wrote that got my attention. When I reflected on the movies I'd made, this is towards the end of this amazing book, I noticed a pattern. The moments I was proudest of, that audience had responded to the most, tended to be the moments that my collaborators and I worked out together. And you give a couple of examples, I forgot to mention GI Joe and the lunch scene in Crazy Rich Asians. Those moments had worked because the process had worked. I had carved out space and allowed time for creative breakthroughs to happen and for all of us to make one another smarter and more inventive. That is an extraordinarily inclusive way at looking at managing a very complex and a very expensive project, very business. And you make, it can't be as easy as you made it sound. Can you talk through some of the examples where collaboration really worked and where you struggled and where may you continue to struggle?

Jon M. Chu (31:52):

I think at these kind of where we're all together talking about, yes, collaboration is the way it's so great and just include everybody but real talk, it's really hard. If you start to open up that door, people start to run you over. People think you're nice and they start to take advantage of you, and they do all these things. And the hardest part is staying the course of collaboration and staying strong in collaboration, setting horizons, but also knowing the power of when it's bigger than your own idea, that it’s better than your own idea, that that is the ultimate goal. And so collaborating is something, when I first started making wedding videos and bar mitzvahs, it was just me, like my camera, my editing all night. I put the music on, I do all that stuff. And when I started doing studio films, it was really hard to work with an editor.

Jon M. Chu (32:55):

I just wanted to get in there and just edit. But I was sort of forced to because I was young. I thought, oh, this is the way it was. But I'm so glad I went through those first few movies. I had great editors, but I got to watch them. And it forced me to learn how to communicate, not how to do the cut, but the story I'm trying to get to in the cut, it forced me to talk to costume designers. I don't know about dresses and stalks and hairstyles, I don't know anything about that. But I could say this scene's about yearning and that she feels out of place. So whatever you need to do in your costumes to make that feel or whatever we need to do in our camera, help me tell that. I picture one shot like this, but maybe that's not the right shot.

Jon M. Chu (33:48):

Maybe there's a better one that you can come up with. And so when I started to understand when my communication skills got better, when I started finding the right words, and it's really difficult at first because I didn't have the right words. I didn't know. Sometimes I would dictate instead of try to find again sort of the carrot to get people to invent new things to me that took five, six movies to get to. And maybe that was that moment. And Now You See Me where I felt like the key unlocked and it was like, I'm not a storyteller when I release my movie, I'm a storyteller at every part of this process. When I'm pitching to the studio, I'm storytelling to why I am the only one that should choose to do this movie. And if I'm not the one, then good luck to them.

Jon M. Chu (34:33):

That's not my thing. And I'm constantly storytelling to the actors about what we're trying to make in this movie. I am not the actor in it. So hopefully they give something better or something different that I can then lean into. But it is storytelling, raising money is storytelling, all of it. And when I embrace that, and it comes from my mom's words, if you're a storyteller, you're storytelling in anything. It changed my whole process. It became about process completely not the destination of the movie. And it also took the pressure off. I wonder if the audience is going to like it. It became about everything. I'm focused on what we're trying to say through the story, and by the time they finish the movie, we have done the task. And if the audience gets it, if we've done our job, hopefully the audience does get it or a certain segment of the audience gets it, then that will be that.

Jon M. Chu (35:24):

So I think that collaboration, it is the most difficult thing. You sometimes feel like people just want to run you over and sometimes you have to let that happen so that you can keep the task on. And we never talk about that. But I think it's really important because what I believe is the future of collaboration, the future of great work. If you have a great place to work and the end thing isn't what you all wanted, I don't know. That's not what I want to work necessarily. I want to have the great place to work and us be so proud of what we just did that I think you can have it all.

Jon M. Chu (36:05):

And I've been very lucky. Every time you do a movie, you're basically creating a new company with new people and you're reestablishing culture. So I've got a lot of practice on how to establish culture, what do I need to say upfront so that we don't have that problem later? What kind of people I need to get on board, what kind of vision we need to share so that when we do move forward, we're all working in lockstep. I've gotten really good at that. And I think that that to me is the key to collaboration. Well, I think it's doing it over and over again, but I think setting, getting the right people in the right place and then knowing that you are trying to achieve great things.

Ellen McGirt (36:39):

Yeah

Jon M. Chu (36:41):

I think they can work together.

Ellen McGirt (36:43):

I do too. Two quick things before I let you go, and I do have to let you go, and it's going to be a tragedy for all of us to lose you. This has been such a wonderful conversation. What grade would you give your industry in terms of inclusion and diversity? Because you were coming up as these conversations are very serious conversations, we're tracking it, we're happening. What grade would you give Hollywood right now and what direction do you think it's going in?

Jon M. Chu (37:09):

Listen, when I started to now, it's so different. The culture is different. The demands, what was accepted is different. And for that, I feel very grateful that I got to live through this time and not through the time when I started and watch some of this behavior that now the culture of it is you can't do that shit anymore. I am very proud of where that is. Is there a ton more to do? Yes. That's just on work culture in terms of subjects and what kind of stories we're telling. I think there are two factors that are playing into that. I think there are a lot more leaders, people in leadership positions who are able to change things and make big bold choices now like you guys out there. But I also think that the audience decides.

Jon M. Chu (38:07):

They can blame Hollywood all they want, but when an original movie comes out there and you don't show up, guess what the sign is? Don't make those movies. And there's been so many great original movies with actors and subject matter that are different and the audience doesn't show up. So in a weird way, Hollywood is a reflection of us and who we decide to support. So it's hard to blame an executive who's just trying to keep their job with something like Crazy Rich Asians because it made money. We saw more movies like that and we saw those actors lead movies, and we need more of that. And that just, we got lucky in whatever. But to me, that's, I think as leaders, I, in whatever industry you are, I think we have to be great. And that sucks. But I think you have to be great because when you do it, I think you're not forcing it down. You are forcing it by example of what it is.

Jon M. Chu (39:23):

And I know it's tough, and I've had some tough conversations with some executives who literally, I was like, we had a lead actor who's Asian that was supposed to cast, and he came to me and he's Asian, and he's like, listen, dude, we got to hire these kind of actors, this other actor. I'm like, but they're not Asian. This is written for an Asian person. I was like, bro, you've got to get in there. You are the one in there. You got to fight for this. He's like, man, I'm just the DEI hire dude. And I was like, what? You think of yourself as that? I was like, you are in the room. You should not think of yourself at that. If you already think that, then you should just quit. You should just be out. You are in the room. You have a responsibility. And so that was a hard conversation to have. And maybe someone like that is not ready for that job. But I do feel like if you're in this room and there's certain things that we have to do as a society to change our own industries, then it's going to take that kind of courage to speak up and to do those things. I know it's not easy. I've been screwed on many of those things, but maybe one or two things we'll get through.

Ellen McGirt (40:39):

Yep. We're going to have to end there. If you're in the room, own the room. Jon, thank you so very much. This has been such a delight.

Jon M. Chu (40:46):
Thanks everyone. Appreciate you.