Ally Financial's Kathie Patterson on Rethinking Financial Well-Being at Work

[00:00:00] Roula Amire: Welcome to Better by Great Place To Work, the global authority on workplace culture. I'm your host, Roula Amire, content director at Great Place To Work.

[00:00:12] I sit down with Kathie Patterson, chief human resources officer at Ally Financial, to discuss a challenge that affects millions of employees: financial stress.

[00:00:23] Kathie explains why financial wellness shouldn't be seen as just another employee benefit and how financial stress shapes how employees show up to work every day. But what I keep returning back to is our discussion around emotional intelligence. Kathie argues that it's the foundation of strong leadership, understanding what motivates us, what triggers us, and how to have difficult conversations in the workplace.

[00:00:49] It's why Ally invests so much in emotional intelligence training and how to have crucial conversations, how to be kind and direct at the same time, and why it's necessary to have a foundation of psychological safety. Tune in and enjoy.

[00:01:12] Well, Kathie, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:15] Kathie Patterson: Well, thank you for having me.

[00:01:17] Roula Amire: It looks like we were neighbors growing up. You're from Detroit, and I'm from Bowling Green, Ohio- just across the border.

[00:01:25] Kathie Patterson: Yes, not too far. I think we might be roughly around an hour and a half a- away from each other. But yes-

[00:01:31] very close.

[00:01:32] Roula Amire: Yes. And you went to University of Michigan, my dream school growing up.

[00:01:36] Kathie Patterson: Yes, I sure did. So, well, I'll give a little bit more story of that. But yes, Michigan is an amazing institution, and I'm very fortunate to have been educated there.

[00:01:45] Roula Amire: Yes. I tried... I mean, I got in, but I couldn't justify the cost, you know, being out of state.

[00:01:52] Kathie Patterson: No

[00:01:53] Roula Amire: ... I pled my case. You know, I wrote the university a letter seeing if there was anything they could do, and they gave me a small scholarship, but it wasn't enough especially for an English major, I thought. Well- So anyway, ended up going to Miami of Ohio and had a great, you know, experience. But that was my first- Real-world experience with finances. And you've talked about being a first-generation college graduate. I'm curious, you know, how that shaped how you see financial security and wellness and how that's evolved over time.

[00:02:25] Kathie Patterson: Yeah. Yeah, there's, no doubt that being first generation shaped the way in which I look at financial matters then and then today.

[00:02:35] Yeah, I grew up in a family that was all about hard work was valued but nobody was talking about investment strategies or retirement plans or how credit really worked. And so, you know, I probably made every financial mistake I could early on in my career. And so in terms of taking out student loans, not really thinking twice about them, credit card debts, because, you know, when you're in college, everybody wants to help you get a, a good start.

[00:03:03] And so, there's no doubt that, you know, when I look back I've learned a lot around financial lessons the hard way. And it wasn't about the lack of ambition. It was just about the lack of information. And so that's one reason why I take financial wellness so personally. I don't want our employees to have to learn that the hard way.

[00:03:23] I think there's definitely more that can be done so others can learn from the generation before them.

[00:03:29] Roula Amire: So let's talk about that. We've... We see at Best Workplaces like Ally, you know, financial wellness and financial support is, you know, being seen as a core part of overall employee well-being.

[00:03:41] Kathie Patterson: Yeah.

[00:03:41] Roula Amire: So what does financial well-being look like at Ally?

[00:03:45] You know, what are you doing for your employees so they don't have to learn lessons the hard way? And part and parcel with that, what is something that leaders maybe misunderstand about financial stress?

[00:03:57] Kathie Patterson: So I think, you know, at Ally, you know, financial wellness is an ecosystem, so it's not just a benefit.

[00:04:03] It is part of a, a much larger ecosystem about how we help our teammates be financially secure today to build confidence help them build for the future and building wealth over time. And so, you know, one of the things that I think we've done fairly well is look at employees across the life cycle and really begin to understand a little bit deeper in terms of, like, moments that matter.

[00:04:27] So, you know, our ecosystem is made up of a, a really strong 401k student loan debt repayment, 529 support around education, educational assistance up to $10,000 annually. We provide financial coaches that are available, wellness support around retirement, so not just sort of helping employees plan for retirement, but helping them think through what that retirement transition would be.

[00:04:55] So that's a, a little bit of the... a sampling of what we do to make sure that we're thinking about financial wellness from a, a full ecosystem. One of the things that I'd say that where leaders sometimes lose sight or maybe a, a lesson learned over the years is that when an employee has financial stress on a personal level- That has a huge impact in terms of the way they show up in work.

[00:05:20] I mean, there's not a, a separation between coming to work and being able to set all your problems a- aside. And so being able to help employees manage their day-to-day lives, and again you'll hear me reference a few times moments that matter is extremely important. And so recognizing that when an employee is living paycheck to paycheck and they are financially stressed, that stress is gonna carry them into the workplace, and it's gonna affect their performance in the long run.

[00:05:47] Roula Amire: Is there a story that stuck with you of how financial support with an employee- Yeah ... there, you know, had made a real difference in their life?

[00:05:57] Kathie Patterson: One of the benefits that I think I continue to get really powerful stories about is our Own It grant. And we allocate equity to employees based upon company performance, and it could be up to 100 shares.

[00:06:11] And for many of our employees, they've never owned equity. For many of our employees, like, the education around dividends, understanding how, you know, they are now an owner in the company has created such a powerful experience. And I... You know, if an employee started with us with the first Own It grant, they have close to $40,000 already saved up.

[00:06:36] And what that does in terms of helping generational wealth, what that does in terms of providing support for a home, a down payment on a home, helping sort of significantly get out of debt, I mean, it's game changing for many of our employees. The Own It is probably the one... You know, we...

[00:06:54] There's other benefits around our employee relief front and our hardship where employees are able to contribute to provide support to other employees in moments of significant financial stress. But the Own It is one where every year I- I'll get a story of someone taking a picture of Their new home or, you know, some- a, a new car that they bought, you know.

[00:07:17] So it's helping our teammates really move beyond sort of paycheck to paycheck, but to truly create some larger investments. And it... And that's powerful.

[00:07:26] Roula Amire: Very powerful. Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about, You mentioned moments that matter, and you just mentioned some now. You've talked about supporting employees in those moments that matter.

[00:07:37] That could be, you know, buying a new car, a new home- Yeah ... or taking care of a loved one, dealing with a health challenge. How did you figure out the moments that matter to your employees at Ally, and did anything you learned surprise you in that process?

[00:07:53] Kathie Patterson: Yes and yes. So when it comes to thinking about the employee life cycle we did quite a bit of research of going out, listening to our employees, and asking them, where are the moments where they feel most vulnerable?

[00:08:05] And you know, that word vulnerable is probably the powerful word. You know, when do they feel most vulnerable, and when do they feel like they needed support or they were alone? And we were able to identify what those life and work-related events were that shaped moments that matter. And we really define our employee journey to make sure that we're providing support in those moments.

[00:08:28] But that's sort of like a bigger picture of how we try to draw and design the larger employee experience. Each year when we do our employee survey, I always learn a little bit more about a moment that, you know, resonates or what's most a top of mind for our employees. And I think th- in the last two years the item that continues to ring, and I don't know if this is so much a surprise to me, but just continuously a reminder, it's the power of recognition.

[00:08:57] And, you know, some will say it's the bonus, some will say it's promotion, but it's really just the, the simple relationship that I'm valued in the workplace, my work is making a difference, and it's the thank you. I know that. I know that to be true. I know what it, I feel like when someone just shows the smallest amount of appreciation for me.

[00:09:18] But I have to say that's one that the last couple years have sort of, continued to come through. And we recently introduced a platform that was actually created by our employees through a hackathon. So it was created by our employees, and it's been rolled out, and probably close to 75, 80% of the workforce has gotten onto this platform to do a simple thank you to a peer, to a teammate, to a boss to whomever that's within the Ally system.

[00:09:46] And the thank yous range from, you know, thank you for being a cultural carrier to thank you so very much for carrying this large scale project. And that is a, a simple moment that matters, but I really do think it, it creates a space that people feel good about where they work and who they're working alongside.

[00:10:05] It's a thousand small moments like that every single day that really build your culture and it makes people feel good about their work, makes them feel good about who they're working alongside, and it creates a sense of pride.

[00:10:18] Roula Amire: Yes. It's small but mighty. I mean, this is- Yeah ... also what happens outside of work, right?

[00:10:24] Oh. When you feel thanked, you feel that you did something that mattered- Yeah ... to someone, it feels good. It's no different, Right ... in our personal lives than, you know, in our work lives. And you've certainly spent a lot of time thinking about how to support your people through those moments, which requires a deep understanding of what they need.

[00:10:42] And I've also heard you talk about, you know, as AI becomes a bigger part of how we work you've been a strong advocate for, you know, emotional intelligence, which- ... kinda dovetails into what we're talking about. So, what does emotional intelligence mean to you? What does it look like in practice and how do you develop this at Ally?

[00:11:01] Kathie Patterson: Emotional intelligence, I believe, is really the foundation of strong leadership. I believe that you need to be able to identify, you need to be able to regulate your own personal emotions in order to lead. And I, you know, I think it's really hard to put new leaders in a role if in the event you haven't helped them learn a little bit more about their learning styles, their personal awareness around how they show up in moments of stress.

[00:11:28] So for me, you know, emotional intelligence is really about having a sense of awareness of who you are as an individual, what motivates you, regulating that, and being able to sort of step back and reflect about... 'Cause it's not perfection. You know, none of us are perfect, but it's the ability to sort of step back and say, "How do I continue to sort of evolve and grow and drive greater sort of connection within my team?"

[00:11:55] A, a few things that, you know, we do at Ally that I think is important is training for our leaders. EQ is definitely something that a leader can learn. Crucial conversations. Engaging in hard conversations, I think is a, a core competency in terms of emotional intelligence, because it forces you to sort of step back and engage in a conversation that could be messy a conversation where you need to be open to listening to multiple viewpoints as well as just basic emotional intelligence training in terms of how do you identify your emotions, how do you identify sort of those triggers that might exist within the workplace, and how do you regulate that?

[00:12:33] For me I truly believe that while AI is moving fast and the information that's being processed is faster than any, any of us can probably produce, that the real difference maker is gonna be the leader that knows how to amplify AI with EQ. They know how to sort of balance the discipline. They're the ones that are able to step back and understand the employee journey, the customer journey, and know where AI fits and where you need a human that is part of the equation.

[00:13:06] Roula Amire: So many follow-ups to that. First off, give us some, some color as to what s- subtopics are part of, you know, crucial conversations. What, what types of you know, topics and how do you teach that? Is it role-playing, or can you give us some kind of specifics on what that looks like?

[00:13:26] Kathie Patterson: Yeah. It's actually from the research that was done at Stanford, and Crucial Conversations was created by looking at not what just good communicators do, but what's the difference between the good and the great communicators, and provides- a level of a methodology to help leaders sort of think about, like, "Why am I stuck? Why is this a high-stake conversation?" So it builds tools to help leaders reflect and really start thinking about, "What is my truth? What's the truth of the other, and how do I create and broaden the pool of knowledge between the two of us and be clear on your commitments, be clear on what you're looking for as it relates to moving forward to strengthen a relationship?"

[00:14:14] So, what I've appreciated so much around Crucial Conversation is for a workforce that might be heavily engineering-based, it really creates a little bit of a methodology for how to think through those moments that are high stakes or moments where you really feel stressed, and there's varying views, and how do you help a leader sort of navigate through that?

[00:14:36] And it's two days' training, so let me be clear. It's two days' worth of training, and it is a combination of teaching as it relates to principles and then actually practicing it real time. And what we've heard from leaders is, "As much as this was to help me from a leadership standpoint, you've helped me strengthen my relationship with my daughter.

[00:14:55] You've helped me strengthen my relationship with my wife. You know, I just have a different set of tools of how to get into this conversation that nine times out of 10, I'm emotionally hijacked around."

[00:15:06] Roula Amire: That's where I wanted to go right away when you said that, when you talked about regulating emotions. I mean, we can all-

[00:15:12] Kathie Patterson: Ugh

[00:15:13] Roula Amire: use a good dose of training,

[00:15:15] Kathie Patterson: Yeah ...

[00:15:15] Roula Amire: on how to do that. A- and is this for e- all leaders at every level or just senior leaders or certain executives?

[00:15:23] Kathie Patterson: So this was training that's part of our first-line leader foundation training, so it's the expectation that, you know, all our new leaders go through that, that program.

[00:15:34] Many of the senior leaders have gone through it. It's usually s- a suggested reading for those that m- might have recently joined the organization at a more senior level.

[00:15:43] Roula Amire: What if a senior leader thinks- "I'm good. I don't need that kind of training." What do you say to them and how do you make the business case to them or other leaders who might be listening that are skeptical on what this does for your business?

[00:15:58] Kathie Patterson: I used to take a long sort of listing of all the reasons why this is good for the organization, about that highly intelligent leaders need to be able to work across organizations. They need to be able to work. They need to learn how to collaborate. They need to learn how to communicate. But you know what I started to do is I started to just bring in stories of leaders and about large projects that, it, were r- really sort of struggling, and giving examples of how, you know, creating this sort of common language within the workforce has made a difference because it has allowed people to...

[00:16:35] You know, there I have yet to meet a leader that doesn't disagree with me that one of the largest challenge for leadership is having difficult conversations. I've, I really do feel like I've overcome that. The second piece is really about helping understand the fact that we need a common language and a common tool set to help sort of navigate those differences.

[00:16:58] And as a senior leader, it's really important that you role model that. So you might have all the great skills in the world, but, you know, how are you, how is that showing up? How are you role modeling that within the workforce?

[00:17:09] Roula Amire: So let's talk about, you mentioned the power of story, you know, storytelling, an example to kinda make the point of this.

[00:17:16] Can you share an example of a conversation someone might struggle with before training and how they handled it different, you know, after?

[00:17:25] Kathie Patterson: I'll use myself as an example. Well, this is sort of a little bit of a humorous story. I when I first rolled out this training to my staff, I, probably about two weeks later, had a series of meetings on my calendar that were all subject crucial conversations.

[00:17:42] Which I'm like, "Okay, this was, this is not what I was intending it to be." But I, I say that tongue in cheek. It was an example of, you know, myself as a leader. There was items that I had blind spots for My team didn't feel comfortable highlighting those to, with me, and I think they created some stories about how I would respond without maybe having some data set.

[00:18:06] And I believe going through the training gave them a, a series of tools where they felt comfortable coming in and having the heart-to-heart with me i- in a way that was safe. And if the one thing around crucial conversations while the, the materials have been out or the research been out for a while, the one thing that has...

[00:18:25] that is true that I think you s- you hear nowadays even more so is, how do you create psychological safety? And that is really the foundation of much of crucial conversation, is how do you create an environment where it's safe, where people can openly sort of share their truth and creates to the pool of meaning.

[00:18:42] And to me, that just, that was one example where as a leader, the team was telling a story, but I also wasn't necessarily inquiring. I wasn't asking the questions of where they were on a particular topic. But it wasn't until we went through that in, in their own way, they felt like they had a tool set and permission to be able to engage in those conversations more freely.

[00:19:06] Roula Amire: Before we move on to some personal questions to get to know you better, I do wanna touch on your ERGs, your employee resource groups. Speaking of psychological safety that's where many people in ERGs feel psychologically safe in those communities. Yeah. More than 60% of your 10,000 employees belong to at least one ERG, which is remarkable.

[00:19:29] You can correct me- Yeah ... if those numbers are- Yeah ... are wrong, but that, that just jumps off the page. What do these groups do for your business, you know, and what's happening inside these communities that may not happen otherwise?

[00:19:42] Kathie Patterson: Yeah. So our employee resource groups are open membership And I said, so they're not closed to the uniqueness- of that group. And they are set up with various pillars. So one is education. So what are they d- And so each of them have an an education month, where it's how are you educating the workforce on topics that are unique to your particular group? The next is development. So what are you doing to sort of continue to develop the next pipeline of talent, be it recruiting, so helping us from a recruiting standpoint, helping us from mentoring.

[00:20:19] And then the third is community give back. What are you doing to support your communities? Many of our ERGs have intersections, so you see an enormous amount of collaboration across the ERGs in terms of educating broader. But it's created the foundation, I think, for our culture. It's created a space of belonging, a space of understanding.

[00:20:42] So, you know, I'm not looking to change your value system, but I am looking to make you a little bit more open and be a little bit more respectful. I'll tell you, as a head of HR, I have learned so much about shaping our benefits and modernizing them based upon our ERGs, you know, our diverse abilities.

[00:21:03] I've learned a lot about just what's covered, what's not covered, you know, the, the depth of the listening. And just I think it's it has significantly influenced the way in which I think about how I design our benefit platforms. The whole employee journey, but in particular the benefits, has really been pretty eye-opening for me.

[00:21:23] Roula Amire: Yeah. That's great to hear. That's inspiring, actually.

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[00:22:01] Okay, Kathie, let's switch to a couple questions about you so we can get to know you a little bit better. We started talking about how you grew up a, a bit. Were there any lessons from home or from your upbringing that still shape how you think about work or leadership?

[00:22:17] Kathie Patterson: Work ethic. Like, my parents were, "If you're...

[00:22:21] I don't care what you do, y- but you are gonna put your all into it. If you're the janitor, you're gonna be the best damn janitor that's out there." It was always about strong work ethic and showing up.

[00:22:32] Roula Amire: If you don't mind me asking, what did your parents do?

[00:22:36] Kathie Patterson: My father worked at MichCon, and he actually started off as a gas man and finished in their training department.

[00:22:45] And my mom worked in a nursing home for many years, caring for the, the elders, so.

[00:22:51] Roula Amire: What was your first job growing up, the first job you got paid for? And was it a great place to work?

[00:22:57] Kathie Patterson: My first place was a a store up the street, and I I was like a little sales associate. And my first job was, like, 14 or 15.

[00:23:07] I had to get work work papers for it. And my dad drove me to work. But I... You know, the... As I look back, there's a few things that I, that stood out. One leadership matters. Like, I remember specifically when one supervisor was there, I couldn't get out of work fast enough. But when there... the other supervisor was there that made work fun, answered the questions, sort of, and was helpful, I could've worked all day long.

[00:23:36] And you know, early on, I... it was just, you know, "Oh, God, I'm gonna be working under this supervisor," and, you know, at that point Dad picked me up at 5:00. Versus... and so, you know, that relationship matters so much. Standing on your feet all day is an excellent motivator to stay in school, so that was the other part.

[00:23:55] It was... You know, all day I was on my feet. I was running around. So I, too, think a little bit of the, the physical labor probably pushed me towards school. But, you know, I, leadership matters. It... And I... That was probably the, the one thing that I noted the most about my first job, and that I think carried with me.

[00:24:16] Roula Amire: Yeah, sounds like it definitely carried with you. Yeah. And we all wanna be the leader where, you know, employees want to and look forward to work with us- Yeah ... and not the other supervisor. What advice would you give your younger self?

[00:24:28] Kathie Patterson: Save earlier, invest earlier, worry less. The first two would've made me richer, and the third would've made me happier.

[00:24:40] Roula Amire: Great advice

[00:24:41] Kathie Patterson: Yep. So, hands down

[00:24:43] Roula Amire: I always ask guests what's a, a book or a podcast they'd recommend to their peers or something they consume that just you know, makes them laugh out loud, and I'll let you answer that. But I hope Running Point makes the list since Ally Bank Arena is home to the LA Waves basketball team.

[00:25:01] So for anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about, Running Point- Yeah ... is a TV show, TV series on Netflix, stars Kate Hudson, kind of loosely inspired by Jeanie Buss' longtime presidency of the Lakers. So I love the show. Go Waves. I don't know what you think.

[00:25:15] Kathie Patterson: Oh I love the show, too, and I loved the first season, and our chief marketing officer is absolutely brilliant.

[00:25:23] And so, yeah, I... There is such a sense of pride, I think, of our teammates, too, to sort of see Ally being featured as the stadium. But yeah, I think it's a great show.

[00:25:32] Roula Amire: It's great. Yeah

[00:25:34] Kathie Patterson: I'll tell you the book that hit, probably hit the chord with me the most, and, you know, there's books, there's research books that I've read, and fictions, nonfiction that pull.

[00:25:44] But one that hit me the hardest Teeny Beautiful Things by Cheryl Strayed. And it... A- and what I loved about that book is it was such a... The ability to have this radical candor and empathy, and do it in a way that still showed care, I thought was so powerful. And I believe wholeheartedly, like a lot of times being in, I hear leaders where it's like, "Well, you just want me to be nice." No, I don't want you to just be nice. I'm not asking you just to be nice. You can be respectful. You can have a direct conversation, and still do it in a very empathetic and caring way. And I just, I appreciated that book because I thought it was such a nice illustration of having a strong standard and a value system that you weren't compromising, but yet she's so empathetic in the way in which she delivers her message.

[00:26:42] So that is one that I've really enjoyed.

[00:26:45] Roula Amire: That's a great recommendation. Yeah. We're not asking... When you said, you know, "I'm not asking you to be nice," in my mind, I thought, I'm asking you to be real, to be- Yeah ... be true to what you wanna say in a kind and empathetic way. And you might have already answered this with the supervisor in your first job in the retail store, but have you ever had an interaction, or a mentor, or small act of kindness or s- or the opposite that changed your path- Yeah

[00:27:11] or it's something that stayed with you over all these years?

[00:27:15] Kathie Patterson: You know, I didn't grow up in... I grew up in a very supportive, loving family, but I didn't grow up in a, a family where we were talking about corporate-related activities. You know, they weren't talking about investments, but they also weren't you know...

[00:27:29] There's tribal knowledge that exists when you get into a corporate setting, like, you know, how you show up, how you present yourself, how you communicate. And I had a mentor early on her name was Nancy Kramer, and she saw something in me before I even knew it existed, and she really shaped me. And she shaped me in a way of a little bit of the Cheryl Strayed, very direct and candid about, like, language, how you show up, what you wear, and gave me I think- And probably that, that she believed in me, but yet also gave me that tough message of what I needed to do to, to put forth my best self.

[00:28:09] So, that is the power of a mentor. I get a lot of individuals that'll knock on my door that will ask me to be their mentor, and I have said multiple times, "You really don't want me to be your mentor. You want me to be your sponsor. To be your mentor, you need to be able to show up, be vulnerable, ask me the tough questions and I guarantee you're not gonna feel comfortable coming in and telling me that this just happened with your manager and not be scared of judgment that's gonna come from me, just because of the nature of my role."

[00:28:41] And so, you know, realistically, if you want a mentor, you really need to make sure it's somebody that you feel safe with, that you can be honest, and that you are open to the feedback without sort of fear of, like, how that information might be weaponized or used.

[00:28:58] Roula Amire: How did you meet Nancy?

[00:29:00] Kathie Patterson: So I've worked through undergrad and I met her at AAA Michigan.

[00:29:04] So, Okay ... she was a sales director and I was a receptionist that sold car insurance after a while. So I worked with her for many years and started to help sort of support her insurance book. But yes I met her at my third job that I had while going through college.

[00:29:23] Roula Amire: Yeah. Well, we never forget the people who...

[00:29:25] I love what you said, that she saw something in you that you didn't see in yourself yet and- Yeah ... you know, help build building blocks and invest in you, and there's just... There's nothing better. So it's it's great that you were able to have that person in your life, and be that person, I'm sure, for other people.

[00:29:41] Yeah. What gives you hope right now? Whether it's about the workplace or the world, where are you finding inspiration these days?

[00:29:48] Kathie Patterson: Roula what gives me probably the most hope is just people continuing to lean in to connection and community, and so that, that inspires me.

[00:29:58] Roula Amire: And me as well. Kathie, thank you for your time.

[00:30:00] Thank you for everything you shared today. It was a real pleasure talking with you. I appreciate it.

[00:30:06] Kathie Patterson: Thank you for having me, Roula. I enjoyed our time together.

[00:30:11] Roula Amire: Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed today's podcast, please leave a five-star rating, write a review, and subscribe so you don't miss an episode.

[00:30:19] You can stream this and previous episodes wherever podcasts are available